Mobile Apps - Mobile Device Center Question

Asked By Gary Ch
04-Jan-08 09:12 PM
I am just buy a new computer using Windows Vista. But when I use Mobile
Device Center to sync. my pocket PC I found that it can only sync with
Outlook.
As I am not planning to buy MS Office, does it means I can not use Vista and
need downgrade back to Windows XP?
Windows XP
(1)
Windows Media
(1)
Windows Vista
(1)
Outlook
(1)
Office
(1)
Excel
(1)
Word
(1)
OEMs
(1)
  Todd Allcock replied...
04-Jan-08 10:45 PM
and


That won't help, since the device will only sync with Outlook on an XP
machine as well (it will NOT sync with Outlook Express, which comes with
XP.)

You do not have to buy Office to get Outlook- Outlook is sold separately.

Otherwise, if you wish to sync just to have a Backup, you can establish a
free Exchange account with mail2web.com and sync with that over the internet,
and use it's free web-based version of Outlook (Outlook Web Accress) on
your Vista (or XP) PC.
  GaryCh replied...
04-Jan-08 11:19 PM
But on XP I can use Activesync instead of Mobile Device Center which can work
with Outlook Express, Right?
  Sven replied...
05-Jan-08 12:06 AM
No, ActiveSync works with Outlook, not Outlook Express.

Under XP, there are thrird party programs that do add the ability to sync
with Outlook Express, or Palm desktop, or other PIMs. The better ones cost
money.  AFAIK there have been no such extension programs released for
Vista/WMDC as yet.

So you can downgrade to XP, use ActiveSync and Outlook Express if you buy
something like Intellisync to make that work, or you can stick with Vista
and WMDC and buy Outlook.

BTW, no, WMDC does not support Vista Calendar, or Contacts, or Windows Mail
(the replacement for Outlook Express on Vista)

--
Sven
MS MVP Mobile Devices
  Chris De Herrera replied...
06-Jan-08 12:30 AM
Hi,
You can sync with Outlook Express however you need a 3rd party application
to do so.  Check out www.syncdata.it for example.


--
Chris De Herrera
http://www.pocketpcfaq.com
http://www.pocketpctalk.com
http://www.tabletpctalk.com
http://www.mobilitytalk.com
  Todd Allcock replied...
06-Jan-08 11:47 PM
work


Not without 3rd party apps.  Activesync only syncs with Outlook, not Express.
Frankly, rather than buy additional apps to kludge syncing with OE, you
could just buy Outlook...
  Paul Murphy replied...
09-Jan-08 12:15 PM
Sven, your reply addresses a common concern that I also have, namely that
Activesync (also WMDC for that matter) does not sync 'OS to OS' but requires
additional software at a cost or web based workarounds (as already
mentioned). The part you wrote after BTW is exactly what's called for to
satisfy those who don't want to have to start up a huge program like Outlook
just to send a few light weight emails or get some contacts. Microsoft
clearly included this basic calendar, contacts and email capability in the
OS because they felt there was call for it. Now many of us want to use that
functionality fully (but don't require any more high powered solution) and
with our state of the art Windows Mobile 6 pocket PCs, we can't do so as is.
I'm considering buying Vista to replace XP Pro on one of my PCs but without
native OS to OS synching I won't do so.

I really cant understand why Microsoft doesn't allow synching at both levels
i.e. OS to OS for those with a basic setup or OS to Office for those with
higher powered needs, it's not reasonable IMO to force those with pocket pcs
to have to install a fairly recent version of outlook on their desktop to
get full functionality on the pocket pc. Aside from this, where do users
with other office suites on their desktops (or even older versions of
Microsoft Outlook such as 2000) stand? Isn't this an example of Microsoft
using its market position to put pressure on Pocket PC owners to part with
more money?

BTW, I'm not seeking to shoot the messenger here, just trying to get
Microsoft to listen (my direct communication to them about this has gone
unanswered and I know they look here).

Paul
  Todd Allcock replied...
09-Jan-08 03:55 PM
without

Since XP doesn't include "OS to OS" synching either, maybe I'm missing the
relevance?  It's not like you are avoiding the need for Outlook on either OS.



I agree.  It'd have been easier if MS just used a common .pst file format
for the OS-included PIM apps- Activesync/WDMC doesn't really need to sync
with "Outlook"- it needs to sync with the contents of Outlook's data file
(just like you don't "sync" with Word or Excel itself- just the .doc/.xls
files themselves.)



I'd have less of a problem with it if Outlook was still included.  Not
having an included PIM sync function is stupid- Palms include Palm Desktop,
Blackberry's include a Desktop Manager, etc.  WM should have PIM sync
functionality "out of box" whether or not it uses the OS-included PIM.


That's what 3rd party apps are for.  Again, if a Vista-compatible version
of Outlook was included with each WM device, we'd have less to complain
about.  Even if you didn't personally care for Outlook, at least the needed
functionally would be provided for you to use or choose not to.

with


I don't think so- my personal "conspiracy theory" is that MS probably
intended to incorporate Vista Calendar/Mail sync with WMDC in order to stop
including a $100 copy of Outlook for "free" with every WM license, but
support wasn't completed in time for WMDC's release.  (If you recall, Vista
shipped before WMDC, and there was a short period where the new OS had NO
PPC/WM support save for a very buggy beta!)  IMO, they then decided to stop
bundling Outlook 2k2 anyway because of it's minor incompatibilities with
Vista (to avoid selling devices more functional with XP than Vista., which
would look bad from a marketing standpoint- MS wouldn't want to be offering
a mobile OS that wasn't "Vista ready.")  They could've bundled Outlook 2k3,
but that's still a current product, and MS generally bundled older versions
of Outlook with PPCs, probably to avoid cannibalizing sales of current
Outlook versions to businesses.

I suspect prioritizing solving other problems with WMDC (like synching
issues!) have delayed incorporating a sync with Mail and Calendar feature,
but I suspect it'll show up in a future (7.x?) release.

(Note the above is entirely 100% speculation- I just can't imagine MS'
suddenly soaking WM users into buying a $100 desktop contacts/calendar
manager, particularly in a very competitive mobile device market.)



Agreed- again, IMO, the easiest solution would be to work .pst file
compatibility into a future version of Vista Mail/Calendar, but limited in
functionality to protect sales of Outlook (no Exchange support, etc.)  Then
WMDC would work "as is," and Mail/Cal would offer an easier/seamless
upgrade path to Outlook.
  Paul Murphy replied...
10-Jan-08 03:05 AM
The point is that I'm considering upgrading to a newer OS but for me to do
so this is one of the features I expect, otherwise there aren't enough
benefits to justify it for me. Since Vista is a current product, the
development of such capability would not be wasted but could see extra sales
income as a result.


Either through common file formats or having some sort of
converter/translator (similar to what happens with multimedia files under
Activesync).


It's a ridiculous answer when a non-Microsoft solution such as a 3rd party
app is called for to get two current Microsoft products to play together
though. If Outlook wasn't such a huge resource hungry program I wouldn't
have a problem with a freebie copy (rather than a cheeky  time limited
trial) being included with Windows Mobile devices but as long as that
software needs more resources to run satisfactorily, that's not a proper
solution. I deliberately went with a Windows Mobile Pocket PC because I
imagined it would offer greater compatibility with my desktop PC - boy was I
wrong!


Well if Microsoft are listening, my upgrade money is staying in my wallet
until such an upgraded OS to OS syncing solution comes along with Mail,
Calendar and Contact synching. The sooner you develop this, the sooner you
get my money.


I'll be happy with whatever way they accomplish this as long as it doesn't
slow down synching speeds on low powered desktop PCs. My Win XP Pentium III
933 MHz machine is already far slower at Activesyncing multimedia files onto
my TyTN II's memory card than if I take out the memory card and transfer the
files using a card reader, this is a ridiculous situation. My destop PC is
at the minimum spec level for Vista (the CPU is slightly slower than
suggested) and I don't want to have to upgrade that as well.

Paul
  Sven replied...
11-Jan-08 01:10 AM
I understand what you are saying, sort of. Don't have a clue what you mean
by OS to OS syncing. I don't understand what you would want sync'd? Really
what we are syncing is application to application stuff, files, really. To
make that worthwhile you need to have comparable applications on each
platform. If you install AS on XP, you sync is files, media and IE
favorites.  If you install WMDC on Vista you can sync files, media and IE
favorites. Same capabilities. If you install Outlook on either platform you
get the added benefit of syncing the PIM info.  Unfortunately while Outlook
used to be provided, in most cases, it no longer is. Word and Excel are
supported on WM and their files can be sync'd. Do you believe that MS should
provide a copy of Office so you can use those files on your desktop? The
sync capability is there, it is the applications that are missing.

I'm not sure I believe that MS is behind not providing a copy of Outlook
with the devices anymore. I never bought a device from MS, I bought them
from Compaq, Dell, HP. They bundled the Outlook, and I expect they licensed
it from MS. I expect the OEMs chose to quit doing that, not MS.
Unfortunately, I think the view of reality from the OEM marketing/accounting
depts (and MS as well) was that these were largely enterprise devices.
Enterprises used MS Office versions that came with Outlook, and the majority
of users already had a copy. I have unused copies of Outlook laying around
that came with PPCs, because I already had Office, with Outlook on my PCs,
and typically it was newer than what came with the device.

If you are currently syncing with Outlook, what version of Outlook are you
syncing with? Is it 2000, as that is buried in your question? Not sure why
you are interested in upgrading OSs if your applications hail from the turn
of the century. If you have a version of Outlook (or Office w/Outlook) that
is relatively a peer with XP, I would bet it runs fine on Vista.

If you don't like Outlook, that is your perogative, but I don't see that you
should expect MS to support syncing multiple PIM applications.

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great if WM sync'd with Vista
Calendar and Contacts, but it is not like MS is not providing capability
they did provide in XP.

BTW, Vista actually provides more 'sync' capability out of the box than XP
did. You don't even have to load WMDC to access the WM device as a psuedo
removable drive. You could never before go to your friend's house and
transfer files to his machine without having AS loaded on his machine and
connecting as a guest. You can do that now with Vista...without WMDC. I am
pretty sure you can even sync media files with Vista, without WMDC as media
sync is really a function of Media Player and it only used AS as the
conduit.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't try to load anything but the most basic
version of Vista on the machine you indicated in the first place...if that.
I don't think you will be happy with the performance, unless you are like
one of those turtles on TV that do the DSL vs Cable Internet ads. This is
not a guess, I have loaded Vista on machines similar, and a bit better than
that, and it does run, but I did not find it pleasant and reverted to XP on
those machines.  Not sure what you think you will get out of Vista. It has
some nice new features, but they are not worth the performance hit I believe
you will see. So, I agree. Keep your upgrade money, but don't make a Vista
Contacts and Calendar solution your trigger. What until you can get your
hardware and apps up to a suitable level for the OS.

BTW, the sync speed to a media card in a WM device, vs in a card reader is
not hampered by your PCs speed, nor would it be significantly faster with a
better machine, disregrading the bit of boost you would get with a 2.0 USB
on the PC, which I expect you don't have. It is due to the way the transfer
is implemented. I agree it is pathetic, but that's the way that is.

--
Sven
MS MVP Mobile Devices
  Paul Murphy replied...
11-Jan-08 08:45 AM
I mean the native applications to each OS (Win XP or Vista now to Windows
Mobile 6 incl Office mobile that comes as part of that OS) should be able to
sync together and no further applications (such as Outlook) should need to
be installed and no web based solutions etc should be required. Sure there's
no version of Word or Excel native to Windows XP (even though MS make free
readers avail for download) but synching of these apps only relies on file
synching which is provided anyway. The applications I have in mind include
the desktop equivalents to Pocket Windows Media player (this currently works
for me with a glitch that some desktop album art wont display in the pocket
version), Messaging/Pocket Outlook, Calendar and Contacts.


See above for clarification. Yes I have Word and Excel installed on my
desktop (because I choose to use those and yes I can synch those files fine)
but the more important synching requirements for me are those above.


But if MS chose to make OS to OS synching a reality (as well as allowing
Outlook synching) bundled copies wouldn't be needed and that's something MS
have direct control over. Personally I'm not that interested in apportioning
blame for why Outlook isn't bundled anymore, that doesn't properly resolve
what I want.


I'm sure you understand this is far from the case in all situations though
and many people will buy a Windows Mobile device because they believe it
will offer superior compatibility with a Windows desktop PC and not require
Outlook compatibility. I believe it makes sense to provide both levels of
compatibility.


I'm not currently synching with Outlook, nor do I intend to do so. I have
Office 2000 but I chose not to install Outlook. That combination meets my
needs for an office suit. I use Outlook Express for Email and Windows
Address Book for my contacts. My calendar/schedule functions are usually
performed by my watches schedule alarm or sometimes my PPC with no desktop
equivalent.


I don't expect more than native Windows to Windows synching with anything
else (including (full) Outlook synching) being an extra.


So they got it wrong in XP, does that mean they should continue to get it
wrong with current (and even future) OSs? What we're talking about here is
groups with different needs and at the moment Microsoft are only choosing to
(try to) meet the synching needs of those with recent versions of Outlook on
their desktops, this should not be a requirement for email or contact
synching as far as I'm concerned.


I appreciate the suggestions about speed issues with Vista, having never
tried this combination, your feedback from experience is useful, thanks. I
would say based on this the lack of native OS to OS synching its more the
nail in the coffin lid than a trigger on upgrading then. Even when I do get
a faster PC (and I do currently have a faster machine but I don't want to
synch my PPC with it), I may still use my 'dormant' CDROM set for Windows XP
Media Centre paired with it's dormant HDD, again that would depend if Vista
supported native OS to OS synching by that stage.


I understand the synching software is the bottleneck and FWIW even using my
native USB 1.1 ports the card reader is significantly faster (and more
reliable) than going through Activesync 4.5). I do have a USB 2.0 Hi-Speed
adapter card sitting dormant which I'll install one day. I'm not sure
that'll make much difference though because the microSD card write speed is
still pretty slow and may be the limiting factor.


My point in this whole rant is that it needn't be that way though, it just
needs MS to listen and take the required steps to fix it. I hope they do or
I'll think twice before buying another Windows Mobile device (or MS desktop
os for that matter).


Paul
  Sven replied...
12-Jan-08 12:00 AM
I'll reply to myself as both of you have many very good points, and I hope
MS reads them. I just find it hard to believe that MS has intentionally made
bad, or customer alienating, decisions. They have at some point made
business decisions, that you may not understand or agree with, and may
actually prove unwise. I think statistically MS has proven to get things
generally right. That is from the standpoint of making sound decisions, not
neccessarily pleasing everyone.

I still believe that much of what you see, bundling Outlook, not bundling
it, assuming folks have it, not supporting various other PIM solutions, etc.
is based on a very Enterprise mindset. What you are seeing released today is
two years in the making. I guarantee that two years ago they weren't
thinking consumers playing, regardless of the move into converged devices
sold to more rank and file via cell carriers. You are just now seeing some
realization of non-enterprise users. I think you are going to see more
emphasis on the individual consumer in the future.

I agree that you can get stuff from others that seems to overshadow MSs
offerrings, but Nokia doesn't produce any desktop software, so their
differentiation is to provide it for common applications, including MS and
Lotus. Palm only produces Palm Desktop and a sync conduit for it, again as a
differentiator. I would guess that the majority of potential users of WMDs
actually do have access to Outlook. So I think it comes down to someone
having to decide whether the development effort to support something will
result in significant return in the investment. That's business.

If nothing else, at least Todd and I seem to agree that running Vista on an
underpowered machine won't be joyous. Paul, IMHO you ought to give Outlook
(even 2000) a shot. It does significantly more than your combo of Express
and Address book. That is, if your e-mail is not http based. You might even
take a look at some of the Windows Live offerrings, that can be accessed
from both the WMD and the PC. Can't say much about those that might work for
you as I obviously am using Outlook, etc, so don't have that much experience
with them. To me, some of your issues just stem from your wanting to pair
technologies that are generations apart, a circa 2000 desktop with a circa
2007 PDA.

--
Sven
MS MVP Mobile Devices
  Paul Murphy replied...
12-Jan-08 06:27 PM
It's the old can't please everyone all the time situation, clearly we have
different needs and expectations but we also have some common needs (a rock
solid, reliable solution being just one - we can dream ;-)


Then they need to adjust their priorities and reallocate resources to
quickly play 'catch -up'. I see the philosophy of these ppc devices will be
used mainly by enterprise users as a bit like 64 kb out to be enough for
anyone - MS shouldn't be proven wrong the hard way and needs to make plans
for all types of users and not just one sort. That's why I believe a 'dual
level' solution (basic OS to OS & advanced Windows Mobile to Outlook
synching) is called for.


If you want only the people with fat wallets and fast hardware to be pleased
it is. If on the other hand synching is grouped in as a (very important)
feature associated with the Pocket PCs OS (and lets face it, you don't need
activesync or WDMC if you don't have a Windows Pocket PC or PDA), then
development of everything that goes along with that will reap returns in
terms of greater sales of Windows Mobile OSs. Just because the customers who
buy those OSs from MS are generally large OEMs, it doesn't mean MS should
disregard the needs of all the end users out there.


Certainly I'm not wanting to put a very resource hungry OS on my Pentium III
anymore, not after what's being said here about XP's successor. If I ought
to try Outlook 2000 then are you going to ensure MS make it work with Active
Sync 4.5 - because as it stands the 2000 version is ruled out (although I
believe it works with AS 4.2, my Windows Mobile 6 device needs AS 4.5
minimum). In short, even if I wanted to load up Outlook every time I wanted
to compose an email (and THATs my definition of 'not joyous' so I don't want
to), I'd still need to buy a newer version (which I also don't want to do).

I'm aware of what Outlook can do, I've attended training courses for it and
used to install and configure it for a living as a computer tech.  It still
doesn't make me like it though. You might have (should have) guessed that
still having Office 2000 (minus Outlook) installed on my desktop pc, I'm not
really one for getting software that does 'significantly more' when my
existing software fulfils my needs (including those for a fast running
system) as is.

I wouldn't say wanting to pair functionality of a Microsoft desktop OS that
can still currently be bought new (but had a flashier eventual successor
introduced last year in the form of Vista) with my 2007 Microsoft PPC OS,
was unreasonable, not at all. Even if I did want to pair the latest state of
the art technologies on both sides to my satisfaction though (Vista and WM 6
Pro), I still couldn't do that as it stands to my satisfaction currently
(i.e. OS to OS) so your last sentence doesn't ring true to me.


Paul
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